Debunking Depression with Carl Binger

In this episode, I interview Carl Binger, a therapist who specializes in working with individuals suffering from #depression. 

Carl shares his personal journey with depression, including his experience with severe depression, suicidal thoughts, and the challenges he faced in seeking help. I open up about my oldest brother Dave's past struggle with depression. 

We discuss the importance of seeking professional help, the stigma surrounding #mental health, and the need for vulnerability and open conversations about depression. 

Together, we address the misconception that depression is a sign of weakness and emphasize the importance of seeking help and support. Carl shares personal experiences and insights, highlighting the need for empathy, understanding, and vulnerability. 

We also discuss the role of medication in treating depression and the cultural stigma surrounding mental health, particularly in the African American community. The conversation concludes with a call to create a culture of vulnerability and support for those struggling with mental illness.

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Carl Binger is a New York State Licensed Mental Health Counselor. He works with adults providing care for Clients who struggle with depression, anxiety, relationships, and spiritual abuse. He has extensive experience working with individuals, couples, and ministries and has been practicing counseling since 2014. He studied at Medaille College, where he obtained a Masters in Mental Health Counseling.

His treatment approach is rooted in cognitive behavior therapy and narrative therapy. He believes in empathy and unconditional positive regard for all of the clients under his care. His primary area of focus is men's issues, depression, and couples therapy.

Carl's website: Counseling for those dealing with depression (beingalight.org)

His Book: The Progressive Darkness: For the Christian Losing Hope in Depression - Kindle edition by Binger LMHC, Carl. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

His course/docuseries: Progressing from Darkness | Udemy

Private and supportive Facebook Group:

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:14

Welcome to the One Big Thing Podcast, where inspiration beats transformation to take a little bit of a plunge, and so essentially what was happening was I was just progressively becoming more and more depressed, and two of the conditions that have to be there for you to meet clinical depression is a depressed mood, lack of enjoying things that you normally enjoy. So if those two things are present, you can really start to build a case that you have clinical depression from there.

Speaker 1: 0:49

Well, welcome back to the One Big Thing podcast. I'm your host, steve Campbell. I've always said that it's fun when previous guests, when we finish a conversation, I always ask them you know, who in your world do you know that I should interview or who would be a great guest for the show? And Peter Englert, who was one of my first few guests on the first five, six episodes, was kind enough to suggest a friend that he had on his podcast, and so today I want to introduce the world that may not know him to Carl Binger. Carl and I had a chance to connect over a Zoom call because we didn't know each other, we were perfect strangers. But anybody that's a friend of Peter's is a friend of mine. And when we got to connect a couple of weeks ago, it was one of those conversations where, one, you instantly felt connected. Two, you knew that this was a meaningful connection and it wasn't just a mistake or a fluke. And so I'm excited to have Carl on today and I'm going to give him some time here at the beginning to kind of share who he is and what he does.

Speaker 1: 1:39

But if you are here today, as always, to champion Carl, because this is an interview-style show. I typically will draw different guests for every episode, but I'd like you to come back, like you, to be my guest for future episodes, because I think not only Carl's story but the other guests that I've been very blessed and fortunate to have on this show can really help you move the ball forward in your life. And that's the whole goal of the One Big Thing is to give you practical insights, to tell you hard truths that can help you become the best version of yourself possible. So, carl, welcome to the One Big Thing podcast, excited to have you today. Again, for those that may not know, you do. You want to give us a high-level overview of who you are and what you do.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Absolutely, and thank you for having me on, steve, and big shout out to Peter for connecting me with you. Peter is literally the great connector. I love him. He's a great dude and I feel the same way as you do. A friend of Peter is a friend of mine, so I'm glad to meet you and thank you for having me on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 2:35

And so just a little overview of me 40-year-old African-American male, married to my wife for 10 years, got three sons, ages eight, seven and three. I've been a Christian since 2003, so, coming up on 21 years, actually became a Christian on 420, which is significant because I was a weed head. I smoked a ton of weed and gave my life to Christ on 420. Later on, after giving my life to Christ, I went through three years of severe depression and during that time I got bad advice from a lot of Christians in terms of what to do and what not to do. I tried a lot of things healthy, health-wise, while still having suicidal thoughts, before eventually going on medications and then becoming better.

Speaker 2: 3:30

The depression and that experience inspired me to become a therapist, so I went to grad school and became a therapist. I've been doing counseling since 2014. I've been doing counseling since 2014. I started a private practice in 2019, working with men and women who suffer from depression and anxiety. I started a private Facebook group called Surviving Depression on January 28, 2021. I published a book on March 3, 2021. And then I released a three-part docuseries on depression fall of 2023. And so I have a passion for people who struggle with depression and people that are in the corners of the world who just are just suffering by themselves. I just have a big heart for them and I really hope that I could just reach as many people as possible to say you're not alone and that you're loved, and that people somewhat cares for you.

Speaker 1: 4:31

Yeah, well, I love that as an introduction. And again, if this is your first stop on the One Big Thing podcast, this is by no means a faith-based podcast, but that is the foundation of who I am. I'm very unapologetic about my faith and many of the guests that I have also have similar beliefs, but it does not mean that I don't have guests from other walks of life and other beliefs. So two things I would ask of you don't check out, even if faith is not a core foundation of your life, because I think we can all address that mental health is a serious issue in 2024. But two, whether you've ever personally been through depression, know somebody that has, or you have no idea about it, don't tune out because you think this episode may not be for you. What I have always tried to do in every single episode is we have different themes, different topics, but I always try to make it to as applicable as to as many people as possible. So even if there's only one single piece of truth you take from this conversation today, you never know how that could help you or an individual you're about to run into. So today we're going to obviously talk a lot about our faith and our background and how that shapes us. But really depression is so near and dear to my heart and when Carl and I connected I had shared on previous episodes.

Speaker 1: 5:37

But my oldest brother for those that may not know me, I am the youngest of three sons my oldest brother went through about seven years of deep clinical depression and it was. You know my mom had struggled with postpartum depression when she had me as a kid, but this was the first real serious bout that our family had ever faced, especially as people that you know love Jesus. It was like what do we do with this? We've grown up in a church our entire life. Depression isn't really something that is talked about. It's almost we've entire life. Depression isn't really something that is talked about. We've had people that had spoken to my brother's life. You just have to think clearer, be happier, you have to change your perspective. But when you are deeply in serious depression, the chemical imbalances in your brain that aren't allowing you to have the kind of thoughts that most people have on a typical day it is not fair to tell somebody just think happier thoughts or just be positive or just be thankful. And so I thought Carl was a great connection today to maybe bring to light something that is taboo, something that's not talked about.

Speaker 1: 6:34

As we were preparing for the show, it was like, hey, how do we begin to really help people identify themselves personally If it's a bad day, a bad week or it's been a bad season? How do you begin to know when to take proper steps? And so I want to get into as much of your story as you can because I think a lot of this is going to come out. You had even shared in the opening you work as a counselor today in the Rochester, new York area. So, upstate New York, shout out to you guys, really close to home, to Peter up there at his Browncroft church, to you guys really close to home to Peter up there at his Browncroft church.

Speaker 1: 7:06

Um, you know, but you've been now in your field for over a decade and you've served primarily, as we talked about a lot of people in the African-American community and kind of the stigmas around depression there, and I think this is what's going to be a fun conversation.

Speaker 1: 7:17

I I, if you know anything about me, I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade. I love the fact that you and I are brothers, even though we're different colors. But when we connected on the phone and had that conversation, I thought we're going to break down a lot of barriers today that I think sometimes in media and culture try to separate us, our differences, rather than celebrate who we are as people. So I love the fact that this is a great connection we're going to get right into today. So why don't you kind of catch us up? I? This is a great connection we're going to get right into today, so why don't you kind of catch us up? I know you talked about your journey over the years, but how did we get to where we are and share as much of your story as you want, all right.

Speaker 2: 7:52

So it mostly started in 2006, where I was attending college at Rockport, which is located very close to Rochester, new York, about 20 minutes away. But I was attending college there in undergrad and around the fall of 2006, I really just started to feel this. It's kind of hard to explain. It was more like a foggy, cloudy feeling, this kind of blah feeling of like why do I just feel so, um, just so blah? I was like I just couldn't explain it and then I just kept trying to conceptualize it, tie it into what I know about God and my experience as a Christian, and it just wasn't making sense. But it wasn't bad, it was just I didn't really feel much. There was this numbness is probably a better word Um, that went on for a couple of months before it then started to take a little bit of a decline, where I started to, um, experience heart palpitations, uh, anxiety, uh negative thoughts about my faith, and then I started to, or I actually stopped, enjoying things that I normally would enjoy. So I think around that time football I'm a big Buffalo Bills fan, and so the NFL was, the season had just kicked off and I found that I wasn't excited about the games, and you know now the the bills sucked at that time, so they were awful. So, you know, people were probably like I wouldn't have been excited about the bills in 2006 either, but I just really enjoyed the camaraderie of being around football fans. And so the fact that I couldn't enjoy that enjoy the wings, you know, enjoy a glass of beer those things started to take a little bit of a plunge and so, um, I essentially what was happening was I was just progressively becoming more and more depressed, and two of the conditions that have to be there for you to meet clinical depression is a depressed mood and a lack of enjoying things that you normally enjoy. So if those two things are present, you can really start to build a case that you have clinical depression from there. You know there's other symptoms too, like your sleep disturbance, diet and mood, agitation and things like that, but those were things that were starting to gradually happen to me. My sleep was starting to get impacted.

Speaker 2: 10:39

I didn't know what the cause of the feeling was. I was attributing it to some sort of spiritual discipline from God. I started to attribute it to maybe it's some losses that I've had in the past, like a past girlfriend or something. I just kind of honestly felt like I was grasping for straws because there was nothing significant that really happened that would have made me thought that that sent me into a depression. And so, going through college, trying to finish I think it was my senior year, the studies were stressful but it wasn't anything unusual.

Speaker 2: 11:19

And then I had a panic attack one night at a friend's house where I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat and I literally thought I was going to die. I think I've only had two panic attacks in my life and that was one of them and it lasted about a couple of minutes. Then it went away. I went to the hospital, got my heart checked, got EKGs and all these other heart scans and tests. They said you're completely fine, and so that just left me more confused because I clearly felt depressed and anxious. But the doctors were saying I was okay and, to be honest, I didn't know what depression was at the time in terms of an actual clinical condition. I just thought when people said they were depressed, it just meant they were sad and that they would get over it and they would pull themselves out of it. So I didn't really know if I was dealing with depression in a clinical sense in my college studies.

Speaker 2: 12:21

And, um think, eventually, where things really took a turn for the worst is, um, I decided the following year when I graduated, to move down to Delaware where uh, uh, four of my uh friends and brothers in the faith live down in that area. So I figured, you know, it'd be great to just get a change of scenery. Maybe that's what I need Get out of Rochester and go somewhere where people are that I, you know, can kind of link up with. And it actually got worse, and I think, mostly because I left things that were familiar and I went to a high stress alternative school where I was doing restraints on kids. It was probably one of the most stressful jobs I've ever had. My sleep took a turn for the worse. I was probably sleeping total two hours a night and I was waking up every five minutes. It was a disaster, absolute disaster. I'd wake up tired, extremely drained, and my thoughts would be racing. I would have negative thoughts in terms of how I'm just this awful person. I deserve death, I don't deserve God, I don't deserve anything good. One of the most fascinating things about. One of the most fascinating things about that job at Delaware was I had a non-believing supervisor who said to me when I went to him I said his name is Mike. I said, mike, I need to put in my two-week notice. I'm not well right now. And he said, carl, we'd hate to lose you but you got to take care of yourself, so in two weeks you can leave. It's completely fine. I went back to the classroom and my thoughts got even darker and I said, oh my God, I got to go back to him and tell him I need to leave in a week. So I said, mike, I'm sorry, but I got to leave in a week and he goes. It's okay, carl, that's fine. And again I went back to the class and the depression it was just weighing so heavily on me that I went back to Mike and said, mike, I'm sorry, I'm leaving today, you know. And then we myself, mike and a couple of other guys we were closing out the school for that day and for the longest I was holding back tears and feelings of I need to be tough and strong in front of these guys. But man, I bawled and I bawled, I cried so hard and, to be honest, I couldn't cry during depression. And, to be honest, I couldn't cry during depression. So one of the symptoms for depression is you can either be crying excessively or not crying at all. And I wasn't crying at all. Mostly I couldn't cry. But the other part is I didn't want to cry in front of these guys, but I bawled and bawled in front of these guys and I just said I don't care anymore. This is what it is. And I'm in the worst state I've ever been in in my life. And Mike put his hand on my shoulder. He said, carl, if you're going to go home today, I want you to take this $100. And I want you to drive straight to Rochester, new York, don't stop, and then call me as soon as you get there. And then another, um, another man outside. He looked at me and he said hey, carl, man, uh, I've I've kind of been sad before. I cried when my uh, when I moved away from my wife and family for a month or something like that, and so I was expecting shame from these men, but they actually gave me empathy. Shame from these men, but they actually gave me empathy, and I'm still very thankful for that today. Um, the, the, the one thing I mean. There's several instances I could give you where I literally wanted to die. I didn't have a plan during my depression but I did want to die multiple times throughout that three-year period. I had this 1995 Saab black car. Every time I stopped at a stoplight or a stop sign, smoke would rise from the hood of the car and I didn't have a lot of money to repair it, so I just kept driving it and at one point I was like I hope this car blows up with me in. That would. That would end all the pain. Um, when I was driving back and 75 or something like that in Pennsylvania I got pulled over by a state trooper and he said where are you going, sir? I said I'm going back to Rochester. I just finished college about a month ago and before he approached me I said to myself I hope this officer kills me. I said I hope that this white officer sees me as a threat and he kills me, because that will put me out of my misery. But this officer was so kind to me. He said sir, just watch your speed. I'm just going to give you a citation. It's not a ticket. Just mail it in and just watch your speed Drive safe, please. So he's very kind to me and the thing I wanted so badly for him to do he didn't do, and that just made me more upset with God because I was just wondering why was I suffering so much and why didn't he just end it all if he didn't love me anymore? Or, you know, I'm just going through all this misery with, really in my mind, no reason for it at all. And so, you know, once, back in Rochester, I kind of felt better for maybe a couple of days, but the depression was just weighing so heavy on me and my sister, who I came back up to stay with, she tried to help me as much as possible, doing natural things, natural remedies, taking St John's Wort, doing milk baths, yoga, exercise, watching my diet, you know, having a consistent sleep schedule, and nothing was working. In fact, I was praying and reading scripture, I was singing worship songs, even when I didn't feel like singing them, and it wasn't changing much, you know. And I had Christians telling me. You know, I had one girl that I really, really and was potentially going to date. She told me to just suck it up, you know, and essentially be a man, you know, I had another Christian brother. Tell me, man, I can't believe you're still going through that, like it's something I wanted to go through, like it's something I wanted to have on me. You know, I had another brother in faith, who's still a good friend of mine today, tell me that the reason I was going through what I was going through was because it's what Jesus talked about in the gospels, about the great falling away. He was essentially saying I was a Christian that had fallen away from the faith and I was never turning back. My sister at one point said and so I do quarterly barbershop talks with mostly black men over at my barbershop and one of the questions I like to ask them at the beginning of each talk is what does depression feel like? If you've ever had depression, what does it feel like? And so the reason I bring that up is because when I was staying with my sister, she said to me I have a ticket to the Cleveland Cavaliers versus the Lakers game in Cleveland and she said would you like to go? And I was so depressed that I just I said yes, but I wasn't happy about it. And what's bizarre about it is Kobe Bryant and LeBron James were playing like two of the greatest athletes possibly, and I didn't. I felt not an ounce of joy or excitement to go to take that bus ride, to have catered food, to sit very close to the action and and and just it was just a. I couldn't believe it how something that joyful normally something that joyful was such a dark thing to experience because of the depression. That is an example in a barbershop. But one guy was like well, depression for me is like winning the lottery and not being happy about it. I'll go pick up my ticket, I'll get my money, but I'll be severely depressed and in a dark mood. He said that's what depression is like for me. So those are just examples. I mean, there's much, much, much more to the story. There's so many things that I'm not sharing, not just because I don't want to, but just for time's sake. But I hope that, you know, kind of gave the listeners somewhat of a glimpse of what I went through. And I'll tell you this too, as a man, because I really love to try to help men out there, especially because there is a stat statistic I have here, um, where, uh, women who have depression, women will attempt suicide, but men are more likely to succeed, and so I not that I don't reach out to women, because I work with women too and I love them too, but I think the men are the most likely to actually kill themselves and the most likely to not get help. And so the one thing I want to finish with is like, as a man, I had several things going to my head, through my head, that was stopping me from getting the help that I needed eventually, which was by going to the psychiatrist. These thoughts were if you get help, you're not a man. If you get help, you're weak. If you get help, that means you don't trust God. If you get help, people are going to think you're crazy. If you get help, people are going to think you're crazy. So I just say that to any of the listeners out there who are a man, or even a woman who might have some similar thoughts is, it's okay to get help. Like the depression is going to be very negative within your mind and within your heart and it's going to be preventing you from doing that, but you have to take the step to get the help that you need.

Speaker 1: 23:26

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Speaker 1: 24:06

Your story resonates so close to home for me because, again, my oldest brother was my protector growing up. There's six years difference between our ages and, being the little brother, he always had my back. I was actually a water boy for his high school football team when I was in sixth or seventh grade when they won the state championship and we had so many iconic moments growing up, but he was always the one that I laughed with. He was always the one that played sports with me.

Speaker 1: 24:38

And when he had his depression right around the same time that you did. It rocked me so hard because there was nothing as the little brother I could do to make him?

Speaker 1: 24:48

laugh. It was very sad sitting with him and just seeing emptiness in his eyes and couldn't tell the joke, couldn't do anything to get him out of it, let alone he was going through a dating phase and getting engaged to my now sister-in-law and getting married, and he had bouts where he would have several months of deep clinical depression followed up by a short window of look like a recovery and you build your hopes up to only have him crash back down to this mental state of was a shell of himself, to the point that this was 2004, 2005, 2006. He actually went to Brockport for a short period of time, but I remember that he used to just disappear and my sister-in-law would call and say I don't know where Dave is, and we would cell phones. There wasn't Facebook back then, you couldn't post hey, has anybody seen my brother? It was just hoping and praying and my middle brother, jared, and I would drive around in the car and park and just run through. We lived near a university, binghamton University, and there was a nature preserve which was just miles of woods and because he wasn't driving, we would know he was gone because literally his shoes would be at my parents' house and he was nowhere to be found and so he was barefoot and I remember being terrified, running and screaming his name and wondering where he was. And I remember one day we got a call as he was out and somebody said hey, dude, your brother is on the West side of Johnson city walking around right now with no shoes on. And for context, I mean, that was miles away from where I grew up and he had just been walking for hours and I remember seeing him and feeling so elated.

Speaker 1: 26:36

And the reason I get emotional is you talked about suicide. I thank God that my brother never took his life. And if you've never struggled with depression or known somebody that has to see somebody that you love be a shell of himself, I always told Dave, dave, do not kill yourself, please. And when you're in such a state like that, it is so hard to break through to somebody when you feel helpless. But even in your story why I want to bring this to the surface is you felt helpless. It's not that you chose to feel this way and I think sometimes, even now, I mean you went through this in 2006 and 2024.

Speaker 1: 27:21

With social media, with self-help podcasts, with videos, with TikTokers, with content creators. There's never been more information saturating our lives about how to be the most fit, how to be the best dad, how to be the best spouse, how to win at life, how to make all this money on Amazon, and you can feel so empty and suffer in silence because you're inundated with it. And I could not imagine if my brother went through what he went through today with the access that we have through technology. But I think what's so hard is, if you've never gone through it, you have no context for what it's like, either personally or as a family member. Personally or as a family member, and, as I said, we had well-meaning people that tried to give my brother books to try to convince him that it was just about having a grateful and thankful heart. We had people that had asked him like what did you do? What a crippling question to ask somebody. If you've asked that before, hey, there's grace. There's grace because you've never been through it. And I know on the surface it can seem like maybe if you just counted your blessings, maybe if you were just thankful, this thing would shake itself off. But that's not how it works when it's a chemical imbalance and that's always the way that I position it for people that don't understand, and that's always the way that I position it for people that don't understand, the Bible talks about a lot encouraging yourself, which, if you are, as Yonason Rabbi came on, we talked about the Old Testament.

Speaker 1: 28:49

You talk about the Psalms. In the Old Testament, king David had to re-encourage and re-establish himself all the time and he said why is my soul so weary within me? And the Psalms are filled of David basically trying to convince himself to let it go like move forward, convince your soul to catch up with what your spirit believes about yourself. But when you're in the thick of depression you talked about, you were trying to sing empty worship songs, you were trying to read words on a page that meant nothing to you. So at least you knew what you should be doing. You knew what you should do.

Speaker 1: 29:21

But I think about for those that aren't new to the podcast or you're brand new here most of my listeners are in their 30s and 40s. Many of them are married, many of them are raising kids, many of them are desiring to have children, but they are actively working on trying to be themselves and I think what's so hard is I think sometimes, when we think about depression, the stigma or the concept is it's jobless people that are in poverty, that might even be homeless, that don't have family, and they are depressed. I can't speak to what you've discovered in your profession, but I would imagine that it's many of the people you would never imagine in your mind that actually struggle with deep depression. They may have, on the surface, the most beautiful marriage on Facebook, they might have the most beautiful children, they might be executives at companies, they may have all the money in the world, but they are depressed.

Speaker 1: 30:14

And so I think there's the balancing act and I've talked about this with other guests that we have, in one way, unhealthily champion this mental health movement, where it's almost been this like all encompassing like if you're struggling, just raise your hand and say you know I'm struggling and people will run to your aid and say I care emoji. You know I'm here for you, but I think, when you were really being honest about the fact that, like you said, the cultural divides of I'm a man, I'm here for you, but I think, when you were really being honest about the fact that, like you said, the cultural divides of I'm a man, I'm a black man in a society, in a culture that doesn't necessarily want me to acknowledge that I'm struggling. They just want me to get over it. They just want me to pray harder. They just want me to read more, working your way through that. I guess now you signified that, youified that when you don't love the things that you used to love and when there's just a season of being in this depressive state are two signs Now that you are on the other side of this. Thank you, jesus.

Speaker 1: 31:12

And helping other people. I mean, for somebody who's never been to a counselor, maybe they've listened, maybe their spider sense has gone off and maybe they've listened, maybe their spider sense has gone off and either they've said you know what I might be depressed, or my wife or my husband, after listening to this, is showing these signs. They don't love the things that we used to love. I'm concerned. I want to do something about it For those that are brave enough to raise their hand and say I need help. What does that even look like? What are steps to that? And if someone did meet with a counselor someone like yourself, kind of paint a picture of what that experience is like, to maybe demystify the fact of kind of what we expect counseling to look like.

Speaker 2: 31:54

Absolutely man and man. I want to kind of go back and touch on a couple of things you talked about. But let me answer that question, if that's OK, into their doctor, getting a physical, getting some blood work done and just getting checked out by their primary care physician and letting them know, hey, I've been having these symptoms because a doctor will give them something called the physical health sort of checklist type of thing that will kind of go through the symptoms of depression with them and then they can look at that and say, thing that will kind of go through the symptoms of depression with them, and then they can look at that and say, okay, you kind of hit on a lot of these markers. We ordered up some blood work for you. We took a physical, everything looks well. Or hey, we took a physical, it looks like you might have something going on with, like you have a lump here, and your heart readings came back a little irregular.

Speaker 2: 33:02

And so I say, go to your doctor first, because it is very important that your doctor could potentially uncover some other things first, right, but at the same time also reach out to a therapist and the doctor and the therapist can work in concert with your physical health and mental health All right. And so the doctor may say, oh, I think you're fine, you kind of check low on the depression scale. So, but you know, still go talk to a therapist because you seem to be down. And you talk to your therapist, your therapist walks through, you know, the VEX depression inventory, or a different depression scale, and let's say you score low. If you're, if you're presenting with symptoms of I just don't really enjoy life as much as I used to, I'm down, that does not exclude you from therapy just because you check low on an assessment. So I would just say, reach out to a qualified health professional your primary care physician and then a therapist and tell them everything you possibly can about the things you've been feeling. And more often than not, if you're feeling the way that we've talked about, you probably are dealing with some form of depression. And I would say, at the least, very least, you need therapy and at the most you need probably therapy and medications, which is sad because both of those things are stigmatized Even still, if you go on medicine, you're crazy. If you go see a therapist, you're crazy. Um, if you, if you don't mind, steve, I just kind of want to go back to something you were saying about, um, your brother's story and just some things, if that's okay. Yeah, um so, um, just so.

Speaker 2: 34:58

So you made a bunch of scriptural references and I think what helped me kind of get rid of some of those stigmas around depression and I think a lot of Christians don't realize this but if you study scripture deep enough, you'll see that many believers in scripture went through depression, even the founder of our faith, jesus himself. If you look at when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, he said to his father my soul is troubled to the point of death, like his. He was so troubled at that point that he could literally die from the sorrow and the pain he was feeling. Not that Jesus wanted to kill himself, but it was so bad that he was asking his father to remove the cup from him and that his soul was in fact troubled to the point of death. You got Job, where he was doing nothing wrong and all of his friends was accusing him of things like did you do this? Why did God bring this upon you? And so you have David, you have Paul and you just have Elijah. You have so, like I can name, probably about 10 people, right.

Speaker 2: 36:06

So I think when Christians start to really look deeply into the suffering that is experienced in Scripture which I think in today's church we've gotten away from that We've gotten away from talking about hell and wrath and suffering. All we talk about most times is just joy and heaven and praise and being thankful. We don't talk about the deep sorrows that are written in the Psalms or the deep sorrow that Jesus felt and the fact that Jesus was called the man of sorrows, right. So I think when we really read scripture honestly, we start to see that depression is there and that kind of gets rid of the stigma a bit. And another thing I think we're missing, and especially, like you mentioned, the 30 to 40 age group, is men just aren't vulnerable. Men don't practice vulnerability and our society tells men not to be vulnerable and to not talk about feelings. But if you found two or three really good friends or brothers and you said, hey, man, can I just? I just want to be honest with you any chance I can get, is that okay? And they were like, yeah, you can, that would make life much better for you.

Speaker 2: 37:12

I think as a person, you don't have to be a Christian, you could just be a person who was suffering and needs a fellow human to talk to and you just say I'm suffering, you know my? My wife says I'm a mean person. You know, I hate my job. I really wish there was something more important than I was doing right now. No-transcript. And I said wow. And he goes. I can't believe it. That's so selfish. It's like what do you mean? He's like yeah, he, he.

Speaker 2: 38:14

He left behind a wife and a little daughter. And I said wow. I said have you ever been depressed before? And he goes no. And I said well, how can you make that judgment? Like if this man felt that his only course of action was to kill himself, knowing that he had a wife and a daughter. Don't you think that was a bad place to be in? And you probably shouldn't be judging him? And he said you know what? You're right. And he said he said, carl, when you were going through depression. Um, he has two kids. Uh, my, my niece Lauren, uh, my nephew CJ. Cj wasn't born at the time. But he said during your depression, would you say you, you hated Lauren, or that you wouldn't want to spend time with her, or that Lauren didn't bring you any joy and I said, yeah, during depression nothing brought me joy, not even Lauren, and that kind of gave him a little bit of an epiphany. But the final thing I'll say on this is when I do the talks at the barbershop and I talk to other people, I read an article and I thought it captured suicide perfectly, at least in my eyes.

Speaker 2: 39:26

Someone's going through depression or any serious mental illness is like a person on the 91st floor of one of the World Trade Center towers. When the plane hits, the building is burning. You have two options you can either burn up in the building or you can jump out the window, and I apologize to anyone if they had family during that time. I'm not trying to be, you know, rude or insincere towards them. I just want to paint a picture of you can either burn in this building of depression or you can jump out and end it all. It's no longer about the people around you, it's about can you even survive as a human being? And so when people end their lives, I never take the approach of oh my God, they're selfish. I take the approach of oh my God, I can't imagine the unbearable pain that they must have been experiencing.

Speaker 1: 40:29

Hey everyone, steve Campbell, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If it's made an impact on you, I would love to take a moment to ask you to subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode, but I would also love for you to leave a five-star rating and review your ratings and review help other listeners know that this show is worth their time. So thank you so much for tuning into the One Big Thing and let's enjoy the rest of the episode. That context to help maybe set some people free of this conceptual idea that we have of how could you be so selfish? You think about, over the last decade, famous people, whether it was Twitch the dancer my wife was a huge fan of Twitch.

Speaker 1: 41:10

This was a guy that was making TikToks and Instagram reels. Dancing with his wife looked like joy personified in the way that he moved his body, and then one day you found out that he took his life and you think back now watching those videos and it's like man, this doesn't make any sense, like how you think of Robin Williams, mrs Doubtfire, peter Pan, robin Williams who many of us grew up with, the genie, like there has been countless stories of, when he was on set he was robin williams personified, but when he was in his trailer he was an empty shell of himself and he thought that the only course of action was taking his life. You think of heath ledger, who played the joker. One of the most iconic character villains in all of movies took his life through drugs. It's so easy to say these people of the Bible, these historic figures, which it's hard for many of us to relate to, but whether you're a person of faith or not, depression doesn't care. Depression doesn't care if you're white, if you're black, if you're straight, if you're gay, if you are of a different country altogether, depression doesn't care. It affects all of us.

Speaker 1: 42:28

And I think maybe some of the challenges is if you don't know God, what do you do with depression? Because if you don't believe that anything exists, how do you make sense of the fact that you feel like crap? But if you do know God, how do you make sense of the fact that you feel like crap? If you feel like you were created on purpose, for a purpose, and this is what you truly believe on either side of the scale, it is a losing equation because it doesn't make sense. And that's the whole point and why I'm so passionate about the fact that I have never personally myself gone through depression. I have gone through seasons of a depressive state when I blew out my ACL and my sports career didn't take off. There was definitely a several months of just kind of working through that.

Speaker 1: 43:16

When you have significant loss or an impact, a trajectory to your life that you did not expect, a storm in your life, whatever you want to call it divorce, death, a loss, someone too soon that rocks you, that changes the narrative to your life that you never saw coming. Working through that is what makes us all human beings. How do you cope with it? Some people are strong enough in and of themselves to just deal with it. They just get through, but they can deal with it. Some people are strong enough in and of themselves to just deal with it. They just get through, but they can deal with it, but never actually deal with it their entire life. They can put on a strong face but never actually have that moment of coming to grips with.

Speaker 1: 43:53

I lost my father when I was really young, or my parents abandoned me, or I was sexually abused as a kid, and so you have these people that are corporate executives today that are influencers, that are musicians, that are actors, that are people that go to your church, people that live down your street, people that you look up to and idolize, that you don't know that they were sexually abused by their father when they were a kid and it's like man. Why do I have intimacy issues in my marriage? Why doesn't my spouse want to be with me or why don't people want to be near me? You don't know if there was something that happened to that person when they were a kid that completely changed their sexual identity and what they thought about life. And so I think sometimes we are trying to make sense of things that don't make a lot of sense, and depression is one of those things that we can't just ignore it. We can't just slap a coffee cup or a sticker on something or put a Bible in front of somebody or just believe if I can just get this person to church Now. I will say that there is a different balance between having the faith to believe that depression is something that can be overcome. I am a champion of that. Thankfully, by the grace of God, my brother never took his life. He has overcome depression. He is completely off medication, but that does not remove the fact that medication in many times can help people restore the chemical imbalance to a place where they can begin to operate. Whether they need to stay on medication the rest of their life, that's okay. Whether they have the ability to get off medication, that's okay. I think sometimes we try to build steps when it comes to mental health where, if it's not a one-size-fits-all, there are some people that can see a sunset, listen to a worship song, have a moment and depression leaves them. You know there is.

Speaker 1: 45:47

There's a story in the Bible, uh and I don't really know why I'm bringing this up but, um, there there were two. There were two men that were very close to Jesus and they were both doing their best to spread the gospel and to share the story of Jesus with others. One lost their life and one lived, and there was a challenge amongst them because it was like how come James had to die, right, but John, peter and all the others got to live? Like, how do you make sense of that? And I think that is also maybe where part of the challenge is is making sense of bad things happen to good people all the time, and when you are a person of faith.

Speaker 1: 46:28

It's almost this layer of like I don't get it that says well, if you were just strong enough in your faith, you should never go through depression. If you never sinned, you should never go through depression. If you tithed, you should never go through depression. If you were sharing the gospel, you should never go through depression. But, folks, what happens when you do? What happens when you have the love of your life? What happens when you bring children into this world? And you still feel empty. When you bring children into this world and you still feel empty.

Speaker 1: 47:03

And that is why, carl, when we connected and again, I try not to get emotional with this stuff, because there are so many hurting people that are out there today and they are grasping for straws at life they are hoping that the next politician saves them. They're hoping that their community saves them. They're hoping that social media saves them. They're hoping that their community saves them. They're hoping that social media saves them. They're hoping that the next job opportunity saves them. They're hoping that they win the lottery and they pay off their debt and that saves them.

Speaker 1: 47:28

But, folks, you can have all those things happen and still feel like you don't feel like living anymore. And if that's you and you are a listener, I think part of the challenge is I'm a content creator, I make content, I try to put myself out there. It is hard, man, when the internet is undefeated, that I've never met you and the comments that people leave when you are trying to lift people up is just, man, that you read something and you have this moment where you read this comment and you're like good Lord what did I?

Speaker 1: 48:10

do to this person and in that moment you have an opportunity. You either just move on or you linger with it too long, like that's hard. If you've ever had a spouse bring something to your attention, Carl, uh, just you know. Just you know. You don't respond the best way in front of our kids like that, like what a gut punch you know cause someone is bringing to your attention outside of you that there there is something that you are doing that doesn't make them feel good or that you want to be better and that hurts. But what about when it's yourself that has to raise your hand and acknowledge I'm not well, like? It's one thing, carl, for you to point a finger at me and be like Steve, brother, I love you, you're not well. It's another thing for somebody to get to the point to raise their hand and say I'm not doing okay. And I think my goal with this episode today, if we stop one person from doing something that they feel like is the best solution for everybody, then job well done. The best solution for everybody, then job well done.

Speaker 1: 49:25

So, carl, I want to give you the space in this time that we have left, if there's anything with as we led up to the show you had talked about primarily serving the black community around depression. If you want to speak to that, if there's anything statistically you want to share, I just want to give you, you know, the remainder of this episode to bring to light, if you had an opportunity. We're at your barbershop, we're listening today. What else do you think we need to know about life? It doesn't have to be depression, but just what else do you think would be helpful for a listener today?

Speaker 2: 49:56

I think that we, you know, I do want to say too, in terms of medications, to encourage people out there. I've been on medication since 2007. The same two medications Seroquel for sleep and Fluoxetine, which is the generic version of Prozac for my depression during the day. Both of those medications since 2007. And in my heart and mind, I'm thankful for people like your brother, who don't need medications, but I'm also thankful for people who still do need them, you know, because we're all different and it's so complex, and I think that's the thing as humans, or even as Christians or whatever faith you may be, we think we need to have all the answers and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we need to be comfortable with things we don't understand, and that's why we try to love better and do better by pressing into these situations we don't understand and don't have the answers to. We have to love and support each other. And so the medications for probably I'm going to be on them for the rest of my life and I have well-being. Christians come to me just at my 40th birthday last year, Three or four of my brothers, brothers, we came to the faith together. They say, hey, carl, when are you going to go off your meds and I'm like why would I go off my meds? Well, you know you've been on them for a while, and this, this and that, and I'm like, well, would you tell your grandmother to go off of her high blood pressure medicine? And they're like, hmm, got them thinking for a little bit and I said you know what? Let me tell you something. Depression is so bad that you know all those side effects. They tell you you can get on those commercials. I would take every last one of those side effects at the same time if I didn't have to have depression. And then the conversation was done. I said that's how serious it is. Okay, so I'm staying on my meds.

Speaker 2: 52:05

As far as to men out there, especially like African-American men that I talked to in the barbershops, I think there's just too much pressure, depending on what culture you're in. We all have in some area of our cultures, whether it's white, black, hispanic culture. We have tough guy culture and toxic masculinity where it's like you got to be tough. You can't show emotion. You can't take anything unless it's drugs, unless it's weed or coke or something. You can't take any prescribed drugs to help you feel better or you're less of a man. That's the message we get, and that's not true. It's very harmful, and so the message I would send is guys, stop, try to surround yourself with men who will support your mental health, around men who will enable you to be vulnerable and share with each other.

Speaker 2: 53:03

The reason that it's such a foundational biblical principle is confession to one another. If we can't confess to one another, all these things get stored up on the inside and we eventually explode either in anger or violence of some sort, or we start harming ourselves or other people. That's what happens, you know, and so we need, across the board, white, black, hispanic, asian men, women, we need to be more vulnerable, and we need to have areas where we can do that in a healthy way. Otherwise, we hold it all in and we harm ourselves or other people, and so if we could create a culture of vulnerability, whether it's a small community or a large community, I think that would be so much more helpful for people all across racial and demographics of all sorts. That's what would be helpful. We need people to know it's okay to not be okay, it's okay to be in a place where you're suffering, but then you got to get help. Don't stay there. How can we help you get out of it? You know?

Speaker 1: 54:12

I think, rabbi and I, you know two different people he's Jewish, I'm Christian. We had a great conversation together and both mutually love each other. I think you know trying to teach empathy is is really something that I strive to do. I have never been in your shoes before and so I cannot begin to understand what life has been like for you growing up, whether that is just as a man, as a black man, and culture and society, and I think, with the think, when we remove empathy, when we remove the ability to understand, if, for some reason, your experience with police officers has never been a positive one, then I can't just tell you to back the blue and say, carl, go put this t-shirt on, because if you don't, you don't love America and you don't love communities, and I think that's what we're all trying to navigate is. You know Rick Yarsh and I had talked about. He was an extreme burn victim from the Iraq war, had a IED go off under his Bradley tag completely changed and disfigured him and him and I got into the conversation around. You know he's a burn victim. He does not look like he used to look and culture would almost have a shy away from the fact of like acknowledging that Rick is different. Meanwhile, rick is trying to celebrate and champion the fact that he is different, and he even said in our episode that I would never change anything about my story because of how many people I'm able to impact. So there's this societal pressure that says we are re-imagining what it means to be a man and a woman. Whatever you believe is up to you. I'm not getting into all of that today, as much as we are changing constructs around. Not only you had talked about masculinity, but the idea of masculinity has even changed, not just from vulnerability, but what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be white, what it means to be black, what it means to be gay, what it means to be straight, and we are trying to make people understand what it's like when there is, like depression. There is no way to absolutely understand what it's like for you being a black man in America, let alone you being a white person, a white man in America, and so I think you not only have this layer of depression, you then have all these societal type things that I think what was cool about having you come on the show is.

Speaker 1: 56:34

You had talked about the fact that in the African-American community, as we were preparing for the show, that weed was kind of the option. Not the medication that you had talked about not going to see a doctor or a therapist, but marijuana it helps you cope with it. I mean, how do you begin to whether that has been kind of in the black society it's been marijuana. It kind of feels like, growing up as a kid, anybody that was different you just labeled as ADHD or doesn't care or hypersensitive, when it's like, dude, we're just labeling things rather than actually trying to seek understanding or actual listening and not listening to the fact of you begin to tell me what's going on with you and I'm immediately just telling you think positive thoughts, just be better, be grateful, but really trying to actually listen to what you're experiencing and to know how to begin to help, whether that's just to give you time, whether it's to give you space, whether that's to get you to a counselor. So I think, as you had talked about too, as we kind of wrap up here, kind of removing the stigma, especially within kind of black culture that you had talked about, with marijuana being a source.

Speaker 1: 57:46

That was an interesting conversation I think you had at the barbershop. Do you kind of want to share that story?

Speaker 2: 57:51

Oh yeah, absolutely so. This happens, I think, across the board. This actually was brought up in the private Facebook group I have Surviving Depression, where someone was going through depression and a crisis and someone white had said oh, just smoke some weed, you know. So I do think it's something that, if it's whatever common drug is around you, people just say resort to that. But when I was at a barbershop, in particular where there was a lot of African-American men, I started this talk off and I said guys, I will say I'm not a prophet and I've rarely been right about predicting things. I said but I would almost 100% guarantee you that during the course of this conversation that we're having someone's going to suggest or recommend that a depressed person smokes weed in order to get better, I said okay, he said okay. So I think 30 minutes into the conversation we're talking and some guy walks in late and he's like or maybe he wasn't late, maybe he was, just that was his barbershop appointment. But he comes in and he's listening he's listening to my story, he's listening to other people's story and he said man, you know what? And he said man, you know what, all you need to do is smoke weed and the entire barbershop burst out in laughter because they were like this dude literally just said that. He literally just said someone at some point is going to say just smoke weed. But honestly, just smoke weed is not any different from any of the other terrible advice that people give, right, like just smoke weed, just read the Bible, just pray, just think positive thoughts. It's a person's way of trying to really get rid of your problem without having to invest in your suffering. And I, you know, I kind of got to go back to scripture man, because to me it's really where my heart is. And, like you see, job's friends, they started off well. They sat with them for a couple of days and if they would have just kept their mouth closed and sat with them the entire time, things probably would have went better for them and joe. But they opened up their mouth and nothing but unwise things came out right.

Speaker 2: 1:00:25

But I like to look at the example of jesus pursuing the lunatic man, the guy with the legion of demons in him. You know, jesus sought this dude out. Um, he, he cast these demons out of him. It says that the man was clothed and in his right mind. And the question I always ask is, where did the guy get his clothes from? And the most powerful part of that particular passage is the fact that this man was clothed and in his right mind. If you look at all of Jesus' miracles, his miracles were physical and spiritual, but this one was mental.

Speaker 2: 1:01:04

And so I say that just to say to anyone out there struggling with mental illness that Jesus loves you, he cares for you and he cares about your mental health. You know, I didn't think Jesus cared for my mental health. I said he doesn't care, he hates me, and this is not going to serve a good purpose, but the purpose that it served for me is still serves today is that anyone who's dealing with mental illness. I truly do love you. If you ever walked in my path, I would show you as much empathy as I possibly can. I'm so sorry for you.

Speaker 2: 1:01:36

I want to hear your story. Please let me know how I can walk with you in this dark time, because he did it before me. And so that's what I try to get across to people. Man, it's just I love you and know that I've been there before, and if I could sit with you in this dark cave or this dark abyss or this portal, whatever you want to call it, black dog room in hell. I want to sit with you. I don't want to run from you. I don't want to despise you and shun you. I want to sit with you and love you and help you. So that's the message I was sending.

Speaker 1: 1:02:09

I love that. Well, I'm going to give you a couple minutes here as I kind of wrap us out to think about your start, stop, continue. So a portion of the show where I ask every guest to give us a statement that they want to start doing, stop doing and continue doing. But my hope is that, with this episode, carl's story has given you a couple of viewpoints. First of all, if you are somebody that has recognized that some of the symptoms that Carl described are things that you are dealing with, that there is zero shame in raising your hand and acknowledging that you need help. If that's you personally, then take this information and do something with it. Don't just continue to think that time is just going to pass and make things better. But also, if you are somebody that has somebody in your life that is going through depression, being in that position is also just as challenging, whether this is a spouse of yours, whether this is a children, whether this is a parent of yours. When you have somebody else that has showed the signs of what Carl described being the caregiver, being the one that's there with them is also as challenging, and I think of my sister-in-law, erin, and what a rock she is that she endured for seven years my brother basically trying to leave, trying to get away, and she stayed and now their marriage is doing awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:03:21

So I think part of the story, too as well, is this is not a one-size-fits-all solution. The first step is getting help if you need it, but help could look like a series of things. It could seem like a lifetime of being on medication, as Carl described, and if that's the case, that's okay. If it's something that this is a short term and you're able to break free and you don't need to take medication, that's okay. But I think it's trying to remove the stigma around the idea of just time. Thinking better thoughts is going to remove these things and, being very honest, of trying to navigate the challenges within society and trying to carry all the weights and all the burdens that you do as a mom, as a dad, as a parent the financial part, the physical part, trying to take care of yourself. You can do all of those things and, at the end of the day, if something is still missing, you might be somebody that has actually struggled with depression and there is zero shame in acknowledging I might need help.

Speaker 1: 1:04:19

So, as I said with the One Big Thing podcast. I would love to have you back as a listener if you are here to champion Carl, but I always like to finish these shows and I'll add this too. I probably should have said at the beginning. You can also watch this entire conversation on our YouTube channel, which is at NQR Media. Nqr Media stands for Not Quite Right Media, so you can listen, but you can also watch every guest. You can go back and watch Peter's episode, but you can go back and binge some of our other podcasts that NQR puts on. But, carl, start, stop, continue. What I would say is you can take them on whatever order that you want, but for the listener or the watcher, just give us whatever the statement is I want to start doing and you can fill in the blanks with whatever's important to you right now.

Speaker 2: 1:05:01

Yeah, it's, it's. It's funny. Um, steve, you mentioned um as an example. Uh, it was like just an example. But you said like what if your wife says, kyle, stop yelling, or something like that, that's actually something, um, that I would like to stop doing. And, um, I don't do it a ton and I've actually gotten better with the little bit that I did do.

Speaker 2: 1:05:26

But when I'm talking to my kids sometimes and they're misbehaving, you know I have a tendency to yell after. You know I've given several preps, but I would like to stop yelling because I don't want my kids to ever remember me as someone who yelled at them. I want them to be like my dad was gentle, my dad was calm and my dad just, you know he can yell because we're human, but I just don't want them to remember me as someone who yelled at them. I want them to remember me as someone who was gentle with them and kind to them and, you know, just a very loving and kind and compassionate dad. You know, start being as gentle as possible, because I think when people going back to the toxic masculinity and stuff is we got to be tough and hard on these kids or these boys. I don't. I don't think we have to. I think we could still be gentle and get our point across and tell people what we need or what we want, what we want. And so I want to start being more gentle and I also want to, I guess, was it continue.

Speaker 2: 1:06:53

I want to continue seeking out people who are depressed. That's what I continue to do when I'm in the Wegmans grocery store, when I'm in New York City, or when I was just in Miami these past three weeks ago, I continue to seek out people who are looking sad. Or, if they're not sad, they'll look at my shirt and the shirt will say surviving depression, or that mental health, mental illness does not equal weakness, or that journaling is powerful. They'll look and see that and they'll say, dude, thank you for wearing that. I appreciate that. I feel seen now. So I want to keep seeking. I want to keep seeking, and if I can help anyone in my path or around me, I want to be able to do that. So that's what I want to continue to do.

Speaker 1: 1:07:33

Those are so powerful and we will definitely have ways to get in contact with Carl in the show notes. So if you want to reach out to him via email or connect with him as he had mentioned his Facebook group get the help that you need. Make the contacts that you need to as well. But that's why I love the start stop continue, because, as a dad with four kids, I'm right there with you. There are some ugly parts to me as a father that I just never thought would be there and, as you had mentioned, it's never going from zero to 60, but it's through the series of prompts and trying to be patient and trying to talk and say please, and then all of a sudden, the next thing, you know, you kind of raise your voice in a way that when you're done, you're like shoot, I shouldn't have done that. So it's a way for us to get to know you as a guest on the show.

Speaker 1: 1:08:11

But, carl, a magnificent job. Thank you for coming on and sharing a vulnerable side to your story, which I really believe will help a lot of people, because again on this show we've talked about everything from strengthening marriages to being better parents, but not everybody's married, not everybody has kids, but depression is the one thing that hopefully, if you stuck around for this episode, whether you've been through it or not, you know that depression doesn't care about your skin color, your race or your identity. It affects all of us. So again, I hope that if this has inspired you, that you would consider sharing this episode with somebody you know that might be going through depression or struggling with loss. Hopefully this episode can help them. But thank you for stopping by the one big thing. I'd love to have you back on future shows and hope that it's not your last stop, but until then, thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 1:08:57

Steve, appreciate it, brother.